Sunday, February 3, 2008

A face meant for radio

Had an opportunity make my radio debut Saturday.

Our lead sports columnist, Jack McCaffery, doubles as a weeekend host on sports talk radio WEPEN-950.

Jack asked me if I would come on and talk about the deal to funnel $47 million in state funding into the project to build a professional spors stadium in Chester. I agreed. There is just as much anonymity on radio as there is in the newspaper. And if you've seen this mug, you'll know it's a countenance that was made for the newspaper.

While I was on with Jack (longtime listener, first-time caller) I made the point that thew newspaper has been a big booster of this project on our editorial page, which makes us something of a minority in the media across the state.

If you haven't noticed, there is not a lot of fervor out there to continue pouring taxpayer monday into these kinds of stadium projects.

But the point I tried to make on the radio is that, if this were only a stadium being built, I would heartily agee. But the fact is it's not.

This is not just a $115 million stadium project. Yes, I realize this is not chump change. But that's only part of a bigger picture. The stadium is a crucial cog in a $400 million project that could turn the Chester waterfront, already home to one economic juggernaut in Harrah's Chester Casino & Racetrack, into a destination point that wold rival anything in Wilmington or Camden, let alone Philadelphia.

I know not everyone agrees. One of them would have been state Rep. Thaddeus Kirkland, who represents much of the city. When the plan was first floated, Kirkland made a good point. Why should the state dump money into a stadium for a city that does not have a major supermarket?

That has now been addressed. Part of the deal unfurled by Gov. Ed Rendell and state Sen. Dominic Pileggi on Thursday will include funds for a supermarket as well as putting money into the struggling Chester Upland School District. And that's something the deal that set up Harrah's did not do.

Now, we wait for word from Major League Soccer. It's believed Chester/Philadelphia and St. Louis are in competition for the 16th MLS franchise, which would likely being play in 2010.

One other point I made on the radio. I realize that this franchise is going to carry the Philadelphia moniker. But I would like to see Delaware County, and the team's home in Chester, be a part of the new franchise.

A month or so ago I mentioned in this space that the team could honor the proud legacy of two county icons, Sun Ship Building and Drydock Co, whose longtime home is just a stone's throw down the road where Harrhah's now sits, as well as another Delco institution, Sun Co.

My idea? The Chester Sun.

It as not terribly well received, being roundly harpooned when it got picked up on the forum hosted by the Sons of Ben, the 1,100-strong fanatics who have pushed the region for an MLS franchise.

Think you have a better idea? Offer a response on this blog.

As I told Jack, maybe the newspaper should sponsor a contest to name the team. Jack jokingly wondered if the newspaper was getting naming rights to the stadium.

Could it be a sign of the Times? Yeah, sure, right up there with me being on the radio.

117 Comments:

Anonymous Bryan from Sons of Ben said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia Independence
Philadelphia Herons (named for their favorite editor)
Philadelphia Blues (as in Blue Collar the working class ethos of the region and locally for history of shipbuilding, anchor making, and other manufacturing)
Philadelphia Commodores

Keep up the great work Phil! Great scoop on the press conference.

February 3, 2008 10:51 PM 
Anonymous Mark D., Director of Communications, SoBs said...

Philadelphia Athletic!

February 3, 2008 10:56 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic FC

February 4, 2008 12:12 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Independence- something with history

February 4, 2008 12:20 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Independence

February 4, 2008 8:27 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Commodores.

February 4, 2008 9:02 AM 
Anonymous Huey said...

From day one I've always liked Philadelphia Athletic Club (Philly AC), it has international appeal, but also is a throw back to the old Athletic of Philadelphia baseball team. Independence or some other pre-arranged moniker I may be open to, but has less appeal.

February 4, 2008 9:10 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Independence

February 4, 2008 9:26 AM 
Anonymous Chris said...

Philadelphia Athletic, count it.

February 4, 2008 9:34 AM 
Blogger Matt said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia Independence

February 4, 2008 9:35 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia athletic club

February 4, 2008 9:44 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

let's do Philadelphia AC or Philadelphia Athletic FC

February 4, 2008 9:47 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Independence SC.
AC Philadelphia.

February 4, 2008 9:50 AM 
Blogger Michael said...

Philadelphia Atheletic Club or Philly AC sounds great to me.

February 4, 2008 9:57 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Commodores or Philadelphia Athletic and have the team nickname the Commodores

February 4, 2008 10:10 AM 
Anonymous Dave, SoB Vice-President said...

Keep it simple: Philadelphia FC. Let the nickname grow naturally.

February 4, 2008 10:12 AM 
Anonymous Mark O said...

Philadelphia Independance

February 4, 2008 10:28 AM 
Anonymous Riverplatephilly from SoB's said...

Philadelphia Athletic, Philadelphia A.C., Philadelphia F.C. (my choices)

I am game for whatever my SoB brothers and sisters will vote for.

February 4, 2008 10:57 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic Club

February 4, 2008 11:12 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Nationals, after the team that starred Walter Bahr, was coached by Jimmy Mills and won the American Soccer League championship four times in the 1940s and '50s.

February 4, 2008 11:31 AM 
Blogger Bob said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia Commodores
Philadelphia SC

February 4, 2008 12:10 PM 
Anonymous Matty said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia Independence
AC Philadelphia

February 4, 2008 12:27 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AC Philadelphia

February 4, 2008 12:30 PM 
Anonymous E Bradlee said...

Philadelphia Independence FC

February 4, 2008 12:32 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia FC

I like the former a little better. I think something that's a more traditional soccer naming convention in addition to something that makes sense locally would be great.

February 4, 2008 12:55 PM 
Anonymous PhillyUnitedFly said...

S.C. Athletic

February 4, 2008 1:02 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic Club

February 4, 2008 1:04 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Athletic Club Philadelphia (AC Philly)

February 4, 2008 1:33 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia A.C.

February 4, 2008 2:11 PM 
Anonymous Tommy Ro said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia Independence
Philadelphia FC
Philadelphia Dark Horses

Great job Phil, heard you on Saturday. I wonder why McCaffery didn't use the "smart alec" names he came up with while he was interviewing you...must be something about you being his boss. ;)

February 4, 2008 2:22 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic, pretty please!

February 4, 2008 3:09 PM 
Anonymous Jim said...

I like the official name being
AC Philadelphia and the nickname being Commodores.

February 4, 2008 3:40 PM 
Blogger Dan said...

Philadelphia F.C.
I can hear the chants now for "PFC"! "PFC"! in the new stadium!

February 4, 2008 4:13 PM 
Anonymous Joe McQ said...

I like Philadelphia FC, and let the nickname come naturally.

February 4, 2008 5:30 PM 
Anonymous skribble57 said...

Philadelphia 1776

February 4, 2008 6:17 PM 
Anonymous Mike, Lancaster SOB said...

As much as FC or Football Club seems great to international football supporters, we do live here in the USA and SC or AC (soccer club or athletic club) is far more fitting. I prefer Athletic, as in Philadelphia Athletic without the "club" on the end. Let the nickname come organically from the supporters.

February 4, 2008 6:18 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic!
or
Philadelphia F.C.

February 4, 2008 6:29 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like Philadelphia Athletic, or Athletic Club. I just don't want this team to have some cheesy name like some other cities.

February 4, 2008 6:35 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like the traditional names for a soccer club, rather then the common use in other sports for a Nickname.

Philadelphia FC (Philly FC)
AC Philadelphia

I like the unoffical nickname of "Blues" if they were to take the color blue. Much like Chelsea FC is known to its supporters as the "Blues"

February 4, 2008 6:43 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

EAST PENN ATHLETIC

or EAST PENN AC

February 4, 2008 6:48 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FC Philadelphia

February 4, 2008 6:59 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FC Philadelphia

February 4, 2008 7:00 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic SC

February 4, 2008 7:03 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anything but athletic will be a travesty.

February 4, 2008 7:36 PM 
Blogger Greg McCoy said...

Philadelphis Independance
(Philly Indy)

February 4, 2008 7:42 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Atheletic Club (A.C.) Philadelphia

with the fan nickname being the A's.

February 4, 2008 8:16 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AC Philadelphia

February 4, 2008 8:27 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AC Philadelphia

Dallas and Toronto already have the FC tag on, so why not be novel.

ACP is just as easily chanted, too.

February 4, 2008 8:33 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia AC!!!!

February 4, 2008 8:46 PM 
Anonymous Matt G said...

I'll take Philadelphia Independence Soccer Club. Fantastic name.

February 4, 2008 8:50 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic
AC Philadelphia

Great job Phil! The positive voice for soccer in the press is much appreciated.

February 4, 2008 9:06 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic S.C.
Philadelphia United S.C.
Liberty United S.C.

February 4, 2008 9:07 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic Blues FC

February 4, 2008 9:23 PM 
Blogger RT Herwig said...

I like Philadelphia FC - for Philadelphia Field Club.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Field_Club

February 4, 2008 9:27 PM 
Blogger RT Herwig said...

Still going Old Skool....

Philadelphia Field Club
Philadelphia Atoms
Philadelphia Charge
Philadelphia Nationals

February 4, 2008 9:34 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like Philadelphia Athletic Club.

It can go by "Philly AC," or even take the nickname "The Pack" (PAC). Very traditional and versatile.

February 4, 2008 9:37 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like Philadelphia Athletic Club.

It can go by "Philly AC," or even take the nickname "The Pack" (PAC). Very traditional and versatile.

February 4, 2008 9:39 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Griffins FC

Philadelphia Franklins FC

Philadelphia Athletic FC

Philadelphia Independence FC

Old Philadelphia FC

Philadelphia Belles FC

February 4, 2008 9:43 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here are a few different ones:

1776 Philadelphia (yeah, I know it is too close to the sixers.)
Penn United
Penn FC
Philadelphia Fury (Remember them)

February 4, 2008 10:12 PM 
Anonymous Gap said...

Philadelphia Pitch

February 4, 2008 10:22 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia FC

it gos right to the point.and pleas no mascots just once a team with out some dumb thing running around.

February 4, 2008 11:43 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I prefer Philadelphia Independence

I absolutely hate Philadelphia Athletic. If we want to go that route, I'd much rather see AC Philadelphia or Philadelphia AC.

February 5, 2008 12:04 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic FC....or Philadelphia Athletic Club.

February 5, 2008 1:20 AM 
Anonymous frankbaby said...

Philadelphia Franklins FC

February 5, 2008 2:36 AM 
OpenID frankbaby1948 said...

Philadelphia Franklins FC

February 5, 2008 2:38 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia FC
Philadelphia Centurions
Philadelphia Athletic

February 5, 2008 4:26 AM 
Blogger RT Herwig said...

Philadelphia Athletic
AC Philadelphia
Philadelphia Nationals
Philadelphia Independence
Philadelphia FC

February 5, 2008 6:43 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic. Nicknames such as the "Blues" can be added by the followers, as in "I support the Blues" and everyone in the community will know you mean Philadelphia Athletic. Athletic is an acceptable football-based name and it harkens back to the old Philadelphia Athletics baseball team.

Leave the naming of the stadium to Chester and Delco as the facility will be more than just MLS.

Not a fan of the "mascot" names - Centurions, Commodores, etc.

February 5, 2008 7:34 AM 
Anonymous JNewswanger said...

I think that SC Philly has a very nice ring to it.

As a non-Philadelphian, is "Philly" not cool?

Philadelphia Independence Sounds like a WNBA team.

February 5, 2008 7:38 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My son and I call them the Philadelphia Stars already

It's a name that channels the region's historical gravitas as well as its rich and diverse sports heritage.

The USFL team actually won a few titles!

February 5, 2008 9:16 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

PSC Franklin

(PSC: Philadelphia Sport Club - the gym won't mind)

Kick Master General

February 5, 2008 9:43 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia A.C. (International soccer traditional), Philadelphia Mummers(Philadelphia local theme) Philadelphia Atoms (Philadelphia soccer traditional) Philadelphia Continentals (Area historical theme) Philadelphia Shoremen (Philly, Chester working class tradition) Philadelphia Commodores (Stadium proximity theme)

February 5, 2008 10:24 AM 
Anonymous Jeff Ray said...

How about the Philadelphia Sons Of Ben... everyone will call them the S.O.B.s. (Too obscene?)

February 5, 2008 11:30 AM 
Anonymous James Taylor said...

Chester Commodores

February 5, 2008 11:39 AM 
OpenID Pancho878 said...

Yes, I like the Athletic Club of Philadelphia Idea (AC Philadelphia). It would look great on a jersey and MLS loves those old school soccer team names (See Real Salt Lake, Houston Dynamo, and Dallas FC)

February 5, 2008 11:52 AM 
Anonymous Party Barge said...

Independence FC

February 5, 2008 11:59 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like Philadelphia Athletic or Quaker City F.C.

February 5, 2008 12:39 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic Club -- I like it! I also agree any nickname beyond that will come on it's own..

February 5, 2008 1:06 PM 
Anonymous Soccerdad said...

AC Philadelphia

Thanks for the support!!!!!

February 5, 2008 2:39 PM 
Anonymous DelawareSoB said...

Philadelphia Athletic OR
Philly Athletic

Specifically not FC or SC

February 5, 2008 2:59 PM 
Anonymous nocuff said...

Philadephia Athletic Club, "The Pac" as we can be the "SoB Pac" sounds great. I saw the Franklins too, putting together The Sons of Ben "franklins" sounds kinda corn. I'll stick with the "SoB Pac" as the nick.

February 5, 2008 3:54 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like the simple name of Philadelphia SC, and,without an official nickname, calling them the Blues based on the unofficial (right now anyway) main color. Someone mentioned on a different sight that Philadelphia Soccer Club was unusable (don't know the exact reason). If SC isn't usable, Philadelphia Blues is a good suggestion for me if there has to be an official nickname.

Thank you, Phil, for being open about the possibility of soccer succeeding in this area. It just makes too much sense, being a huge East Coast market and all.

February 5, 2008 4:33 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like Philadelphia Soccer Club, without an official nickname. We'd unofficially call them the Blues after the unofficial (as of now) main color. Someone on another site said that Philadelphia Soccer Club is unusable (not sure of the reason). In that case, I'd take the Philadelphia Blues if an official nickname is a must.

Thanks, Phil, for having an open mind about soccer succeeding in this area. It only makes sense, being a huge East Coast market and all.

February 5, 2008 4:43 PM 
Anonymous Rene Goulet said...

Not AC. This isn't Italy nor is it the late-19th century. Plus some may think it's a Philadelphia/Atlantic City team, like New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets.

I say Philadelphia Independence SC.

February 5, 2008 5:00 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AC Philadelphia.

February 5, 2008 7:09 PM 
Blogger Rolando said...

I really can't stand "Independence." I prefer Athletic, but not AC: Philadelphia Athletic. Now for some reason, I do like "Independents." The Indies.

February 5, 2008 7:30 PM 
Anonymous jim k said...

I'm not a big fan of Philadelphia AC or Philadelphia Athletic. This is not an athletic club it's a soccer club. So my vote is for the official name to be "Philadelphia SC of Chester" or replace SC (soccer club) with FC (football club). Sure, the chester part would get dropped off in most publications and on TV, but atleast it gives homage to Chester City while also having the Philadelphia Market in the name

February 5, 2008 9:41 PM 
Anonymous Blue is the Colour!!! said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia FC "The Blues"

February 5, 2008 10:13 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A.C. Philadelphia

February 6, 2008 6:23 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Commodores and have the band the Commodores as a mascot!

February 6, 2008 11:18 AM 
Anonymous Nick said...

Philadelphia Athletic is the best choice, if you ask me. Philadelphia FC or Philadelphia AC also seem like good names though.

February 6, 2008 4:28 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Predators

February 6, 2008 4:55 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia A.C. (whether the 'a' stand for 'association' or 'athletic')

or

Philadelphia F.C.

February 6, 2008 7:37 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Red Arrow FC
FC Spartans
East Penn Strykers FC

a few ideas for the soccer team

February 6, 2008 8:25 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Founders F C

February 7, 2008 11:49 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Union FC/SC

Philadelphia Independence FC/SC

Philadelphia Quakers FC/SC

Philadelphia FC/SC

Old Philadelphia FC/SC (i read that on here and liked that alot!)

Philadelphia 2010 FC/SC

Philadelphia Burgundy FC/SC

Philadelphia Periwinkle FC/SC

Philadelphia Franklins FC/SC

February 7, 2008 1:29 PM 
Anonymous Monster said...

Old Philadelphia FC/SC

Philadelphia Athletic FC/SC

Philadelphia Independence FC/SC

Philadelphia Franklins FC/SC

February 7, 2008 1:30 PM 
Anonymous Gravesberg said...

Philadelphia Independence FC!!!

February 7, 2008 1:31 PM 
Anonymous Blaise said...

AC Philadelphia or FC Philadelphia, the names give off a more professional appearance when seen, ( ex. FC Barcelona, AC Milan )

February 7, 2008 1:31 PM 
Anonymous Dags said...

Philadelphia Athletic!!!!

February 7, 2008 1:31 PM 
Anonymous bert mccloskey said...

I like the sound of :

Old Philadelphia

Philadelphia Independence

Philadelphia Athletic

Philadelphia Commodores

Philadelphia Franklins

February 7, 2008 1:32 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletics was a basketball team

sherry

February 7, 2008 3:21 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Gunners FC

February 7, 2008 4:01 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have to remember, soccer is not an American sport. Why demean it with such cheesy names? A traditional name like FC Philadelphia, or AC Philadelphia like others mentioned would be much more appealing, and less of a joke to the higher level teams in Europe.

February 7, 2008 4:21 PM 
OpenID mgrr64480 said...

I would like to see the name linked with a little history.....i also like the Philadelphia Swifts or maybe the Philadelphia Franklins

February 7, 2008 4:49 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia FC = sorry, there already is a football team in Philly - they are called the Eagles. Like it or not, we call it soccer in this country - let's not spend the next few years explaining why there are two football teams in Philly, especially given the Eagles popularity. Plus, Dallas and Toronto already have grabbed the FC name in the past few years - why follow the herd and do it again.

Philadelphia Athletic = has all of the charm of a regional fitness club moniker to go along with images of old Philly baseball teams and mediocre English teams like Wigan and Charlton. If you wanted to go the RSL Spanish enhanced name route, I guess that it would be Atletico Philadelphia.

Philadelphia United = sounds like a winner since the team will need its fanbase to be united with a Philly name, a Chester stadium and a fair amount of fans from NJ, PA (outside of Philly and Chester) and DE. It also plays into the "soccer unites all people with diverse backgrounds" - it provides the whole Philly TV market a sense of community in the team name and makes for great marketing material. Plus, it will instantly cause the DC United - Philly rivalry to raise a few notches just over the name before the two teams ever play each other.

February 7, 2008 4:55 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletics was a baseball team.....get it right before you try to act smart

February 7, 2008 5:17 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone mentioned Philadelphia 1776...I like!

And why not "Philadelphia Sons of Ben" -- naming the team after the club? Surprised no one has mentioned that. I posted my reasons why on BigSoccer. Would make for a great name.

February 8, 2008 8:45 AM 
Anonymous Steve H. said...

Philadelphia Atoms

Since you are not likely to get "Philadelphia Athletic" or any variation thereof (because of trademark issues with the Oakland A's and MLB)...

February 8, 2008 11:57 AM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I like:

Founding Fathers Football Club

Triple F.C. baby!

February 8, 2008 1:46 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

calling this group "raucous and rowdy" is a complete joke when any reader of BigSoccer knows that a bunch of members of "Sons of Ben" were expelled from the group because the founder's wife was offended. Some fat guy painted his chest and took his shirt off. and for that he and a bunch of his friends were expelled from the group--any soccer supporters club should be ashamed for that sort of attitude, and they are obviously talking out both sides of their ass for claiming they are "raucous and rowdy" while being offended by guys who are so inoffensive that they were never even asked to leave by the Spectrum employees

February 8, 2008 2:27 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nick name first, then city name. (Like Red Bull New York)but much better:

1: Athletic Phildelphia SC or
2: Independence PSC = Philidelphia Soccer Club (still hoping for my first SC!) Or 3: Independence Philadelphia SA = Soccer Alliance 4: Alliance Philadelphia SC (Original an new in MLS)oooo i'ts not up to me to decide, but i love that 4th name!

February 8, 2008 2:58 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Freedom... it comes with it's own team song.

February 8, 2008 7:58 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Philadelphia Athletic
Philadelphia City
Union Philadelphia
Philadelphia 1776

February 8, 2008 9:10 PM 
Anonymous Delaware County Keeper said...

Keep the name simple with a soccer flavor to it - Philadelphia United is the best name so far. If Real Salt Lake can "partner" with Real Madrid just based on name, perhaps Philly can then partner with Manchester United - they did play in the first ever game at the Linc.

February 8, 2008 9:29 PM 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:Alliance Philadelphia SC

2:Philadelphia SA (Soccer Alliance)

February 9, 2008 10:38 AM 
Anonymous bryan from sons of ben said...

To respond to anonymous' post about Sons of Ben.

No one has ever been expelled from the group. The only incident you can possibly be talking about was a Kixx game where the arena was pin quiet and someone let loose with a stream of expletives. I think that was more of a time and place thing. The trip to MLS Cup was probably a lot more what you'd expect from a supporters club.

Dissappointing that you would bring up something that it is very clear you weren't there for. The guy was neither painted or fat and was there with one other person. The group wasn't rowdy and raucous that day but has improved greatly since.

February 10, 2008 1:22 AM 

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