Friday, July 24, 2009

Pennsylvanians Oppose new Taxes?? Not so fast.

In my 7 years in the Pennsylvania legislature, I think I've learned a few basic truisms, one of which is: If you want to make a constituent mad, raise their taxes, but if you want to make a constituent furious, cut their services.

If constituents notice an extra $5 a week coming out of their paychecks, I may receive an angry e-mail. But if the pothole on their street is not fixed or they receive a letter telling them their mother-in-law can no longer stay in the county nursing home and must instead come live with them, I am likely to receive a very insistent personal visit.

This adage is particularly germane to the current budget impasse. We have a $3.3 billion budget deficit and unlike the federal government, we can't print or borrow money. We have to actually balance the budget, and the only two ways to do that are to cut expenditures and/or increase revenues. The governor has proposed some deep and painful cuts, but has also suggested increasing taxes as part of the mix. The Republicans who control the Senate have taken an absolutist position that they will not support any increased taxes, for any purpose. Their unwillingness to compromise is the reason we continue to be deadlocked.

In floor debate, and during press conferences, my Republican colleagues continue to cite polls to support their assertion that "the people of Pennsylvania don't want to pay any more taxes." The problem with that statement is that it is both technically true and extremely misleading because it is an inaccurate reflection of where the people actually stand.

Certainly, if you ask people, "Do you want to pay more taxes?" the majority will say no. But that question doesn't tie lower taxes to the loss of services which will surely follow. It presumes a consequence-free world where we don't actually have to pay for the services we want. Of course, if you ask the opposite question, "Do you want government services improved?" the result will be lopsidedly affirmative. Asking either question in a vacuum will fail to give you a true picture of how people feel.

Even generically linking lower taxes to service cuts will paint a misleading picture. In a recent Quinnipiac poll, by a margin of 55% to 35%, people said they oppose raising taxes even if it means a cut in state services. But this is an unrevealing question because when you ask if people want services cut without identifying those services, they tend to imagine someone else's services. Everyone has, in their mind, a group of services they don't think are worthy; but those are rarely the services they, or people they care about, receive.

It is only by linking taxes to a specific service that you can learn where the public really stands. And when that is done, it becomes clear that people want government services and are willing to pay for them. That same Quinnipiac Poll found that by a margin of 53% to 43%, Pennsylvanians would be willing to pay higher taxes to "avoid cuts in state spending on such things as health care and public schools."

Of course, if the Republican budget proposals pass, there will be dramatic cuts in both of those categories, and this is clearly not what Pennsylvanians want. Quinnipiac did not ask if people would pay higher taxes to preserve public safety, or ensure a clean environment, or invest in infrastructure, or job creation, but other pollsters in other states have. People who overwhelmingly oppose higher taxes initially become very supportive of them when faced with the real-life consequences of the cuts they face.

Further proof that people want, in the words of Mario Cuomo, “only the government we need, but all the government we need” can be found in the various referenda placed on ballots around the state. In my own county and municipality, people recently voted overwhelmingly to tax themselves more to pay for open-space preservation. Again, many of these people would tell a pollster that they oppose tax increases for unspecified purposes.

I think that while the Republican position on the budget is certainly sincere, it is also wrong. Failing to raise the revenues to invest in basic services will hurt real people and do great damage to Pennsylvania's future. And while we can have legitimate philosophical differences, the one thing I do not believe the Republicans can fairly claim is that theirs is a future the people of Pennsylvania want.

21 Comments:

Blogger MaggieL said...

Paying for a service is not an investment. Maybe you should look that word up, sir. The Democrats have wasted and porked away far too much of teh taxpayers money in Pennsylvania. Don't come to us now and say you want more.

July 25, 2009 6:30 PM 
OpenID mrdc667 said...

Well 7 years of no budget on time means you aren't doing your job!
As soon as someone on welfare for 3-years or more gets $5 less a week, the sooner I would support an increase in my taxes.
If you think for a minute that the PIT increase would prevent schools from raising taxes anyway, your out of touch with reality.
The state will soon face stiff penalties for not paying employee's on time. Imagine what that will do to the budget. And I am sure this month's revenue collections will show you what happens when you do something stupid like not pass a budget on time.

July 25, 2009 7:15 PM 
Blogger Nathan Benefield said...

Daylin,

Do you (a state Senator) really get a visit every time a resident has a pothole on their street? Given there are likely hundreds of potholes in your district, and each one affects perhaps a thousand local residents, you must get tens of thousands of visitors concerned about potholes each week.

More importantly, the question you cite is a false choice - public schools and health care aren't getting cuts. Medical Assistance is getting an increase in the state budget, even with federal stimulus funding that increases the federal funding of the program. Public schools will get an 12% increase in spending under the Senate budget.

Would voters support a tax increase if they knew that it was to increase education spending above the 12% increase they would otherwise receive? What if they knew school districts had $2.4 billion in reserve balances they weren't spending? What if they knew the true spending by public schools was $13,000 per-pupil, when most voters estimate it closer to $2,000? What if they knew that most of the proposed tax increase wasn't going to education?

What if the questions asked about tax hikes to fund WAMs? Or for per diems for lawmakers? Or for public relations? Or for gifts for legislators? Or for Hollywood studios? Or for corporate welfare?

Of course, if many residents want to pay more, they can. Anyone who wants to pay more can send their checks to the Pennsylvania Treasurer's office, or their local school. They don't need to compel their neighbors to contribute as well.

July 27, 2009 6:36 AM 
Blogger Daylin said...

Nathan, Nathan, Nathan.

Your reply to my post is appreciated. But it is wrong on so many levels that its difficult to know where to begin.

First, it is just factually incorrect. And like your previous assertion in our debate on the minimum wage that "there is a health club owner who will fire 100 people if the minimum wage is increased" the falsity is so easy to verify.

You claim "public schools and health care aren't getting cuts". Wow. One struggles to understand how we an solve a 3.3 billion dollar deficit absent any new revenues without one penny of cuts to the two largest categories of spending in the budget. Of course, we can't, and the Senate Republicans don't.

On Health care, there are hundreds of millions of dollars of cuts. While it would surely test a reader's patience to identify them all, here are some. Among the cuts are Community Access Funding, Disproportionate share programs, medical education payments, and direct reimbursements to hospitals for uncompensated care. One hospital in my district, Mercy Health System, estimates that the Senate Republian proposal will result in a 16 million dollar cut to them alone. And unlike the health club, these cuts are real.

On Education, if you don't count the stimulus funding, which can only go to three narrow purposes, there is a dramatic elimination of all efforts to meet the goals of the Costing-Out study. You may not like those goals, but you can't pretend that the cuts don't happen.

Next, you fall into the very trap I identify in my original editorial. You pick a few programs it is easy to demagogue and say "Hey, look! You don't want to pay for these with a tax increase, right?"

For example, you pick WAMs. And you correct that if you took a poll which said "Do you want to pay more taxes to pay for WAMs?", most people would probably say no. Of course, if you asked the police department in my district which bought defibrillators, or the fire department which bought life-saving thermal imaging cameras, they probably wouldn't want to give them back.

Further, if you took a poll which asked "would you be willing to pay an additional tax to fund important community development projects for police departments, fire companies, and municipalities?" you'd probably get a different result.

But as I'm sure you know, even eliminating what you call WAMs completely wouldn't solve the problem. Thus, the point I made in my editorial stands. Your side can only claim public support if you mislead the public into believing that we can pass massive spending cuts without affecting any programs the public cares about. You are dependent on convincing people that only other, unworthy people will feel pain, not them. And as anyone who looks at the budget knows, that's simply not true.

July 27, 2009 2:37 PM 
Blogger Lisa Mossie said...

Senator Leach,

Your smug surety that the public will be so willing to pay higher taxes for these “valuable” services strikes the same tone as a drug pusher who is so sure his clientele is addicted to his product that he can charge any price he wants and he knows he will get it. It has been the hallmark of politicians like yourself to expand government services to the point of unsustainability then say, sorry folks, we don’t have enough money to pay for your government service habit—I guess we’ll be forced to raise your taxes. Most egregious of all is that now that you’ve gotten them addicted, you couch the argument that the rest of us need to pay for their addiction as a moral imperative, while you elected officials remain safely above the fray with your own set of rules and benefits---perpetually voted into office by the very addicts you've created on promises to keep delivering their fixes.

Nice work, if you can get it. Better still if you can keep it.

You’ve tipped your hand with this obnoxious post, Mr. Leach. Best of luck on your re-election if you think your constituency is so addicted to the government crack pipe that they won’t mind paying out the extra cash to fund it.

July 28, 2009 3:08 PM 
Blogger Daylin said...

Ms. Mossie

I apologize, but I had no idea who you were. I don't typically read your posts, and based both on the tone of this one, and the fact that there are ZERO comments after each of your previous posts, nobody else does either.

One of my staffers did say that she had read something where you seemed to be defending the wack-job who murdered Dr. Tiller, which gave me some insight into what I'm dealing with.

I think your crack-cocaine analogy is a bit, well...overwrought is a good word. I had no idea that trying to get poor people some access to care when they get sick could be, in actuality, such a dark conspiracy. Ditto (a word I'm guessing you like a lot) trying to make struggling schools a little better for the kids who attend them. And child=nutrition programs, also part of the "crack-pipe" I'm guessing?

I don't know how to respond to your post other than to suggest you try a decaffinated coffee. But hey, look at the bright side. At least one person has read what you wrote!

Love Always
Daylin

July 29, 2009 6:47 PM 
Blogger Lisa Mossie said...

Senator Leach,

I am just a private citizen exercising my first amendment rights while I still can, so I'm not sure what your apology is for. I also happen to be one of your constituents.

I am very well aware that intellectually lazy people have a tendency to misrepresent what I have written in the past; it is truly a disappointment to learn that you have these types of people on your staff.

Of course I see your point of view; you are an angel of mercy for the poor unfortunates who simply are incapable of surviving on their own without the blessed benevolence of government aid.

Has it never occured to you how absolutely arrogant this attitude is and how insulting it is to those you propose to help? It is in your best interests to keep these "unfortunates" dependent because that keep people like you in power--people who believe that their "help" is required because a certain segment of the population is unable to stand on their own with out you.

You haven't recieved many responses on your original post either, Mr. Leach, but a quick scan reveals that ALL of them are unequivocably and passionately against raising taxes, despite your rather compelling "moral" argument to the contrary. How do you address this seeming contradiction of of this deeply held principle of yours?

Don't worry about responding, it's only me. Nobody's reading anyway, right?

July 30, 2009 4:50 AM 
Blogger Daylin said...

Well, no. Except you seem to be. So if I may indulge myself, I'd make one quick point.

It seems to me to be easy for someone like you to say it is "arrogant" to try to provide some sort of social safety net. Lets put aside the fact that every single developed nation in the world has such a safety net, most more generous than ours (I guess there are lots of arrogant people out there).

But while sitting back and tut-tutting is apparently a gift you have, I can tell you from personal experience that people who need and get help don't consider those fighting to make it available "arrogant" at all.

My father left before I was born and I never met him. My mother's mother developed a fatal neuro-muscular disease shortly after I was born, and my mom had to quit work to take care of her (no one else volunteered). So for the first couple years of my life I was on "welfare" (no my mom did not buy cadillacs and Vodka).

Not only did we receive small monthly checks, we also received food stamps and subsidized school lunches. When my mom went back to work, we were off public assistance, but there was still no way on the planet that my mother could afford to send me to college. So I got Pell Grants, and government funded student loans. Eventually, I became a lawyer and paid back far more than the state invested in me.

That said, I can tell you first hand that when we got food stamps, or housing subsidies, or free medical care, we didn't sit around saying "How ghastly arrogant of them!". We needed and were grateful for the help (or, as you would put it, the "crack cocaine".)

So if you don't need any help, I'm happy for you. But in my view, being morally-superior and self-satisfied about those who struggle is no way to go through life.

July 30, 2009 12:21 PM 
Blogger Lisa Mossie said...

Well, Daylin, let me tell you my sad story:

When I was 26, I finally got fed up with my abusive husband and left him. I found myself alone with my year old daughter with nowhere to live, no real job and no college education to fall back on. At that time, I was working as a waitress and had no health care either--which, believe it or not, when I got diagnosed with a mild form of cancer shortly thereafter, the doctors didn't send me packing to die on the street because I didn't have an insurance card---can you believe it???---they actually operated on me and I actually paid them back through what remained of my divorce settlement and monthly payments to the providers. That life lesson was what inspired me to leave waitressing and get a better job with benefits.

I held on to the waitressing job part time and picked up another one to supplement my income working at a catalog order house. And oh, did I mention that I managed to raise my daughter and pay for daycare, on my own, for those six years?

I did it without the safety net, dear.

And please, be clear about this: I was not a victim. I was dealing with the ramifications of my own poor choices combined with some bad luck otherwise known as "life".

Sure some people need help getting back on their feet---your mother is a great example of that--but your argument makes no room for two very important facts: the plethora of abuses suffered by the system and the fact that too often that safety net becomes a nice comfy hammock that people never leave. This is not the way to create a productive society. Democrats never address these issues; they simply throw more money at the problem and then wrap themselves in morality and call Republicans evil and heartless when we ask for cuts.

Of course, politicians are dependent on keeping the public being dependent and ignorant. Your power derives from your ability to woo voters with "free" government goodies.

I don't feel that I'm superior to people who "struggle"; I simply think keeping these people dependent on government, and constantly expanding government's role in their lives, is corrupting and demoralizing. How will they ever know success if they have no need or will to strive for it?

For a politician, you seem awfully quick to tut-tut the contrary opinions of your critics, and even quicker to make judgement calls about "what you are dealing with" based upon the tenuous recollections of "staffers". This hardly seems a prudent practice, Senator.

July 30, 2009 4:37 PM 
OpenID mrdc667 said...

Sen. Daylin seems to have a rather large "God" complex which he uses freely to berate and demean the very people he represents and whom chose to comment on a very serious matter.
You may be newly elected, but don't count on making it a career.
We all need to send incumbments packing. PA State Senators enjoy a very generous medical and retirement plan not to mention so many other perks such as having his car paid for and his stays in Harrisburg reimbursed.
Yet, in the whole discussion of the budget, not one member of the General Assembly has offered to reduce their salary and benefits which costs tax payers over $400 million a year in salaries and other costs. Oh they pretended not to take their pay raise, but only after there able to make an increasde contribution to their pension plan.
Make no mistake, citizens are incessed with this nonsense for which we pay for! I have seen better results from state prisoners paid to clean cell blocks!!

July 31, 2009 9:11 AM 
Blogger Daylin said...

Ms. Mossie.

I know I should just leave it alone, but I do want to make a couple of quick points.

First, you seem awfully sensitive for someone who BEGAN the dialogue by referring to me, who you have never met, as "obnoxious" and akin to a "drug-dealer". If you are easily wounded and would like to be treated with more deference and respect, I'd suggest showing some.

As for your personal story, I'm sorry you had a tough time, truly. But your luck was not all bad. You say you found a doctor who was willing to operate and save your life even though you were uninsured. That's was beyond lucky. That was a miracle. Good for you. But imagine if that had not been the case. And do we really want other women in a similar situation to have to rely on finding such luck?

August 1, 2009 8:44 AM 
Blogger Lisa Mossie said...

Oh please. Do give me a break. Miracle? Luck? No one in this country is denied medical treatment. Ever. All they have to do is walk into an emergency room. It's called EMTLA--a government directive that is currently but one of the factors driving up the cost of health care. Perhaps you've heard of it.

And sorry, sir, but YOU started the dialog with your original offensive, arrogant and obnoxious post. You propose to increase my taxes--confiscate my hard earned money---while cloaking yourself in morality. Perhaps you are forgetting the meaning of "public servant", Mr. Leach. You work for me. And I find your cavalier attitude about raising taxes disgusting and just how I originally characterized it. Too bad you were unable to compose a convincing argument to the contrary.

I can see, however, why you chose to leave your legal practice and go into government. Your debating skills are somewhat lacking. As Ray Stanz said, "In the private sector, they expect results."

In the future, I would suggest you refrain from making judgments about the personality of people whom you do not know. Your job is to listen to and represent your constituents. You have cowardly avoided addressing any of my--or any of the other respondents-- objections or points, choosing instead to relate your hard luck story as proof of the need for government services then pooh-poohing my anectodal evidence as a one-off. You then attempt to psychoanalyze me based on a brief correspondence and an incompetent staff member's recollection of something I wrote. Tell me, Mr. Leach, how much of your constituency's hard earned income have you confiscated to pay the wages of that moron?

I leave you with two final thoughts: This one from Adrian Rogers: "You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

And a final thought regarding that snarky original reply about no one reading what I have to say: Pray for the sake of your re-election that you are right.

August 1, 2009 7:16 PM 
Blogger Daylin said...

I will leave your unhinged diatribe against me alone.

But you are dead wrong when you say that people are never denied medical care and that all they have to do is go to the emergency room. (putting aside the fact that emergency room care is the most expensive way to deliver health care)

There is a federal law that requires an emergency room to "stabilize" anyone who is brought in in extremis. So yes, if you get hit by a bus, or if you have a heart attack, the ER is required to triage you, stop the bleeding, and get your heart rate back to normal.

But that's it. If you need a liver-transplant, or cancer surgery, or chemo-therapy, or physical therapy, or a hip replacement, or psychological services, or long-term dialysis, or a 2 month stay in the hospital, or orthopedic surgery, etc. etc., etc. you simply won't get it unless you have insurance.

If you have any desire to allow facts to cloud your wacko-libertarian ideology, there are literally thousands of sites where you can get the accurate information and you can read all the horror stories of people not getting care. Or , you can just drop by my district office and see the cases I personally deal with every day.

Real people are suffering and dying. Yet you are just blithely dismissive, deliberately uninformed and indifferent to everything but your tax rate. I have no famous quote to leave you with. I'll just rely on an oldie but goodie; Shame on you.

August 2, 2009 6:27 AM 
Blogger Lisa Mossie said...

If real people were suffering and dying, as you say, the Obama administration would be trotting them out in front of the cameras on an hourly basis to justify their characterization of the need for Government Socialized Medicine as a "crisis".

Senator Leach, I commend your efforts at portraying me as an "unhinged", "overcaffeinated", "awfully sensitive", "morally superior", "self satisfied", "over wrought" "wack-job". However, your credentials as a Democratic hack were never in question. What you have managed NOT to do in the midst of all of your insults to me, a private citizen concerned about raising taxes, is answer any of my concerns.

What about the abuses in the system?

What about the people who once they get on the Government dole never get off?

What about government waste, for example, the $33,000 in per diems we're paying to support you guys while the PA budget remains unpassed?

What about the fact that many of your constitutents do not want their taxes raised, despite this being your thesis in your orignal post? Is it your position that you do not need to represent their wishes because you know best?

Senator Leach, you can insult me all you want, because in spite of your misjudgment, my skin is very thick. Perhaps I would have backed down if even one of your insulting appraisals of me even came close to the mark. However distracting you were attempting to be, your entire argument rests on the fact that you believe raising taxes to be a moral imperative. I have given you compelling reasons why this is a false premise, and instead of addressing these reasons head on, you repeat your moral imperative argument and throw in a few poorly aimed insults at me, presumably in hopes I will back off.

Yes, I'm such a greedy conservative, objecting to a benevolent government confiscating more of my money and giving it to those who have not earned it. I should just blindly keep working and not question the wise benevolence of great moral leaders like yourself, like a good Comrade. I should remain unconcerned with the increasing incompetence and poor administration of big government programs (see "Cash for Clunkers" and the U.S. Post office,for just two examples) I should just keep feeding the machine, happily handing over larger and larger chunks of my hard earned money and SHAME ON ME for daring to question your methods, let alone your motives?

I think not. Shame on YOU, sir.

August 2, 2009 7:10 AM 
Blogger Daylin said...

Look, I'm willing to answer your specific questions if you stop trading insults. I could list what you've called me so far and it would be quite a litany. I've never met you. I don't know you. I don't particularly care if you like me. So calling me names is really ineffective.

Now, as to your specific questions:

I'm against "abuses of the system". If you find one, prosecute it. But lets not pretend that the magical "waste, fraud and abuse" will come close to capturing enough money to solve our problems.

As for people who "get on the dole and never get off", any review of the actual scholarship on welfare shows that is almost entirely a myth. First, thanks to welfare reform, there is a 5 year lifetime limit, so never getting off the dole is no longer even possible.

But beyond that, being poor in America really sucks. Welfare payments have shrunk dramatically in real dollars over the past 30 years. The overwhelming majority of people on welfare desperately want to get off and get jobs and most do in a short period of time.

There are a few chronically unemployed. But those people are not that way because they are lazy. They typically have some psychological or sociological problem. They are hard cases, but many of them will never be able to hold down a job. Again, we probably differ on what should become of such people,.

I am emphatically against paying us $33,000 per day to show up and do nothing. However, at least in the Senate, you should talk to the Republican leadership who insists on bringing us in every week. I would much rather spend time at home, in my district and with my family.

In terms of what my constituents want, I would refer to the Quinnipiac poll I sited in the first post. The majority of ALL Pennsylvanians want to pay more taxes if it means not cutting education and health care. But my district is much more liberal than Pennsylvania as a whole. I have not polled my district specifically, but my best guess, based on the state-wide poll and the anecdotal observations I've made is that 65-70% of my district supports tax increases over draconian service cuts. Do you suggest that I ignore the wishes of the majority of my district?

I think that's the end of the questions and the start of a final round of personal invective, which I will again leave be. I hope I answered your questions.

August 2, 2009 5:56 PM 
Blogger Lisa Mossie said...

Seantor Leach,

Where we differ is in the definition of a true hard luck case and consequently the number of the true hard luck cases. I think if you polled your "mostly liberal" district, not too many of your constituents would know one of these true hard luck cases personally, but because he has become such an effective straw man for liberals, those of a liberal bent, such as yourself, believe they need to salve their guilt over being wealthy by paying more taxes.

I agree being poor sucks. That's why I choose not to be. And I do believe in most cases it is a choice. By your own account, you rose out of poverty against the odds. I think you need to ask yourself why you feel you are the exception and not the the rule, and why almost half a century of government programs designed to lift people out of poverty have been unsuccessful.

Thank you for finally addressing my concerns, even if I still disagree with you. I think you are too quick to dismiss addressing waste in the system, but of course, you and I will probably heartily disagree about what constitutes a waste of taxpayer dollars as well.

August 3, 2009 4:45 AM 
Blogger Lisa Mossie said...

Oh, and P.S.: If you are truly "emphatically against paying us $33,000 per day to show up and do nothing" then don't put in for your per diem. You are asking you constituency to do with less in their pocketbooks; you could do the same.

August 3, 2009 4:47 AM 
OpenID mrdc667 said...

What is wrong with this picture:
No budget
Thousands of state employee's without paychecks despite working.
Thousands of state workers applying for and qualifying for TANF assistance.
And yet, legislator's continue to play games and point fingers.
Totally disgusting. But, with per diem and a car payment taken care of, what's the rush!

August 3, 2009 5:43 PM 
Blogger Montco PA Dem said...

Speaking of funny, now Lisa Mossie is up in arms on her blog about the potential tuition increase she's facing for her daughter's education.

Ouch, I've got Wingnut Whiplash!

August 7, 2009 7:40 AM 
Blogger Dave said...

Two of the things I noticed first when I moved here from central New York were that the local taxes were much lower, and everything else was more expensive. Most strikingly, the cost of insuring my car doubled.

At first glance this might seem like an even trade, but as I've come to understand the reasons why things cost more, it makes me want to beg for higher taxes.

Car insurance costs more because the highways suck. They are poorly engineered, badly constructed, overcrowded and in a constant state of disrepair. If you compare the Schuylkill "Expressway" (That name cracks me up.) to the major arteries running in and out of other large urban centers, you really have to wonder about the intelligence of the thousands of people who travel this route and still think their taxes are too high.

From my apartment in Camillus, NY, I could drive to work at my Armory Square office in the heart of Syracuse, a ten mile trip, in about 15 minutes. A trip from my home in King of Prussia to the Thomas Jefferson campus in Philadelphia, roughly twice the distance, takes about 45 minutes on a good day.

Some of you are probably thinking it's unfair to compare Philadelphia to Syracuse, and that's true, but not for the reason you think. Syracuse is smaller than Philadelphia, but go there and look at their highways. You'll see three- and four-lane highways running in and out of Syracuse, with traffic moving along at highway speeds, not the two-lane joke you folks call an expressway.

Maybe some people think it's worth spending a few extra hours a week sitting in traffic to save a few bucks on their taxes, but I'd rather spend that time with my family at almost any price.

August 22, 2009 5:36 AM 

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